NLT - SnG, QQ, call all-in reraise preflop?

[Borax]

I need some advice on these situations in tournaments.

 

The setting is a 2-table 20 players SitnGo tournament with 10+1$ buy in and paying four places. 1500 in chips from the start for a total of 30 000 in chips. Blinds are at 100/200.

 

There are 8 players left and I have had only one really good hand sending two guys out with KK all-in preflop. So my stack is about 4000 when I get dealt QQ in MP with two limpers before me. I raise to 600 and LP raise me all-in for 3500 and all others fold.

 

Read on raiser: Aggressive

 

Do I call this or not and why?

:diamond: :diamond:

 

* RP - QoS *

[dlinder]

There is no way you can lay that down, especially with your read. With 20BB QQ is simply too good to fold preflop (that goes extra for low level SnG's).

[eurythmech]

I think I would have folded.

 

I wouldn't risk my tournament against someone who pushes after two limpers and one raiser.

 

One more thing I would have done differently is I would have raised to 1k or so. 600 would be my standard raise opening a pot.

[Hjort]

There's a 1900 overlay in chips so you need to win somewhat above 40% to be profitable. If you're opponent plays like that with JJ+ and AK (which really isn't all that aggressive) you have on average 47% chance of winning, which is a pretty clear call. If you don't think he could play AK like that and no pair TT or lower you can fold, but it's marginal.

 

For a clear fold you need to have him on QQ+ and only that.

[TIGOR]

i wouldve folded, so what did he have?

[Animaniac]

I would have called. Aggressive players are a pain, but with that hand I think it's best to call and hope he's not holding one of the few hands that beat yours. If it was a tight player i would probably have folded, but that was not the case here.

 

You usually don't get a lot of playable hands in a SnG, and now you have a good chance not only to get hold of a lot of chips, but also to kick him out of the SnG.

[Borax]

Thanks for comments

 

Conclusion so far from this and another forum:

5 would have called

2 would have folded

 

What happened in this particular hand was that I called and he showed KK

which held up and I was out.

 

Animaniac wrote:

You usually don't get a lot of playable hands in a SnG, and now you have a good chance not only to get hold of a lot of chips, but also to kick him out of the SnG.

 

This was basically why I called. If I took it down I would be sure to be in the money and with a very good chance to win the tournament.

 

eurythmech wrote:

I wouldn't risk my tournament against someone who pushes after two limpers and one raiser.

 

This is why I posted my question. Animaniacs answer up against eurythmechs answer was my dilemma when playing the hand. I decided to gamble a bit and go for a big stack and ended up loosing everything. My read was important too, because I knew he could push like that with AK (and maybe less) and his stack had been up and down a lot in this SnG. I should maybe also note that he had just lost 1/3 of his stack with KK to AA and I was considering that he might be on his way to tilt a little bit. Well, I was wrong

[psykologen]

I would guess AK, QQ, kk or AA. But its impossible to tell without a tell. You can call and you can fold. Nothing is right or wrong.

 

I would probebly fold. The risk of a higher pair is obvius do to that three persons were in.

[Borax]

psykologen wrote:

I would probebly fold. The risk of a higher pair is obvius do to that three persons were in.

 

We were HU so only two players were still in, not three.

[dlinder]

People in $10 SnGs make that move with medium pairs all the time, in my experience. Also, if I could make you lay down all hands but AA and KK by raising you all in preflop, I'd gladly do it often enough to cripple you before you were lucky enough to pick one of them up with such a short stack.

 

Bascially, I'm pretty sure you did the right thing. Too bad you lost, but shit happens.

[Staahla]

I just watched some poker with Lederer as commentator. A situation like this came up, Mike "The Mouth" received QQ and another guy KK. Both of them had med-large stacks and there were 7-8 persons left, with a few very small stacks. Mike raised with his queens, don't remember exactly how much but I believe it was around 3xBB, not a large portion of his stack. Lederer then saw the kings and said: "There is no way Mike is getting away from this. There is nothing you can do when you get the queens against kings, all of you money is going to be lost 4/5 times. You have to call." Well, what happend was the kings went all-in and queens called and lost. But the thing that surprised me was that Howard claimed that it was impossible to fold queens heads-up when 7-8 left, even with a quite big stack, a few small stacks left and a very steep prizepool...

 

Sorry about the crappy english...

[Stahl]

But the thing that surprised me was that Howard claimed that it was impossible to fold queens heads-up when 7-8 left, even with a quite big stack, a few small stacks left and a very steep prizepool...

 

If you consider folding at that point, you shouldn't be playing tournamentpoker at all. Unless you play to not win as much as possible.

 

If anything, its MORE correct to make the call with 7-8 left heads-up, since the blindstealing with all-ins happens like each and every other hand.

 

edit: unless you have some unnatural read on him and he has never ever gone allin once in the tournament before.

[vetgirig]

I just watched some poker with Lederer as commentator. A situation like this came up, Mike "The Mouth" received QQ and another guy KK. Both of them had med-large stacks and there were 7-8 persons left, with a few very small stacks. Mike raised with his queens, don't remember exactly how much but I believe it was around 3xBB, not a large portion of his stack. Lederer then saw the kings and said: "There is no way Mike is getting away from this. There is nothing you can do when you get the queens against kings, all of you money is going to be lost 4/5 times. You have to call." Well, what happend was the kings went all-in and queens called and lost. But the thing that surprised me was that Howard claimed that it was impossible to fold queens heads-up when 7-8 left, even with a quite big stack, a few small stacks left and a very steep prizepool...

 

Sorry about the crappy english...

 

 

I think Lederer is right here. I got a 6th place in a MTT tonight with QQ against AA and lost my stack on the final table. Its hard to think somone sits with AA as one has QQ shorthanded.

[Borax]

Thanks for all comments guys. I appreciate it.

I think the conclusion will be that I will call this kind of hand also next time as long as the reraiser is not very tight or predictable. Can't let people push me around with pocket Q's

[Ector]

I think its a pretty clear fold. The first limper may have u beat and the all in raisor certainly has no worse than AK imo. There is a big difference between being agressive when you open pots and being agressive when there are already 2 limpers and a raiser in the pot. Unless he is bordering on maniac i fold here. If either you or the raiser has less chips, say 2500, its a call.

[Hjort]

I think its a pretty clear fold. The first limper may have u beat and the all in raisor certainly has no worse than AK imo. There is a big difference between being agressive when you open pots and being agressive when there are already 2 limpers and a raiser in the pot. Unless he is bordering on maniac i fold here. If either you or the raiser has less chips, say 2500, its a call.

I'm not sure if you got the sequence of actions correctly here:

 

It''s an $11-SnG: limp, limp, our hero raises, another big stack goes all-in, everybody folds to our hero. Now he needs 40% equity to make his call as good as his fold. So what if he has no worse than AK? He certainly could be on TT or JJ. The only way a fold is clear is if he can't have either AK or JJ, otherwise it's a the very least border-line. If he's capable of having both AK and JJ it's a clear call.

 

I think it's a pretty clear call, of course I think it's a pretty clear call and then all-in on the flop if it's : "limp, limp, raise".

[helena_]

I would have called if i set the player as you did, aggressive. Its only 2 hands in the game who are better then yours pre flop. Go for it, now it was unlucky for you he got the Cowboys.

[Ector]

Now he needs 40% equity to make his call as good as his fold.

 

The thing is that by calling with 40% (I dont think he has 40% here, since my experience tells me the raiser will have AA KK or AK and almost nothing else when 2 players have limped this late in a sng. Most players overplaying medium pairs and AJ AQ will be gone by now.) he will bust out 6 times out of 10 and by folding he will be in ok shape to win the tournament. I consider myself having more than 40% chance to reach the money with 3400 chips if i fold here. With 8 players left and almost an average stack i would say i make top 4 at least 55% maybe 60.

 

If you think the all in player will often have JJ TT 99 and AQ you call of course but my experience tells me this is not the case with most players.

[Stoneburg]

Yeah I might fold here too.. he re-raises after two limpers and a raise, that usually means that he *wants* a call since he can't think everyone will fold here. With 8 people at the table I might be tempted to call, had it been 10 players I would have thought it a much easier fold.

[dlinder]

Most players overplaying medium pairs and AJ AQ will be gone by now.

 

You did see that it was a $10+1 SnG, right? I think reducing the possible hands to just AA, KK and AK is a very big mistake here.

[Lament]

Most players overplaying medium pairs and AJ AQ will be gone by now.

 

You did see that it was a $10+1 SnG, right? I think reducing the possible hands to just AA, KK and AK is a very big mistake here.

Agreed, I think Ectors way of thinking is right in the higher levels against better opponents. On these tournaments, though, I see people making that kind of move with hands as bad as 99, AQs and so on.

 

My experience tells me that many of these players wouldn't make this kind of allin with AA and KK just because they want more people to get involved, wich -of course- is wrong. A more likely hand for them would be like JJ just because they feel unsure and just wanna get allin and close their eyes .

 

If I felt that the opponent was a decent player I might fold, against bad and reckless players I would call. Just because I know that bad players tend to just call with monster hands and go allin with medium pockets that they dont really know how to play.

[psatiw]

Your 3*BB-bet here is what gets you in trouble, as I see it. With 1300 (200+200+600+200+100) in the pot, and you having 2900 left in your stack, the aggresor prolly could reason that he could have you fold anything but KK/AA here by pushing his chips in, and as long as not UTG is limping one of thoose hands, he's play will be very profitable in the long run, in my opinion.

 

Lets suppose your raise was 1200-1500 instead, and the same thing had happened. In THIS spot, I would have been very confident the LP-player held KK/AA, and folding my QQ-hand would have been easy. Especially since he knows you know he's aggresive (and loose?) and hence it would be a very big chance he would have been looked up if it was just a move he pulled off. Conclusion: he would have had a very strong hand (KK/AA).

[Hjort]

the aggresor prolly could reason that he could have you fold anything but KK/AA here by pushing his chips in,

That's one of the most important reasons for not folding QQ here, you open yourself up to exploitation too much if you make that fold.

 

Lets suppose your raise was 1200-1500 instead, and the same thing had happened. In THIS spot, I would have been very confident the LP-player held KK/AA, and folding my QQ-hand would have been easy. Especially since he knows you know he's aggresive (and loose?) and hence it would be a very big chance he would have been looked up if it was just a move he pulled off. Conclusion: he would have had a very strong hand (KK/AA).

If I'd raised any more I would've been even less inclined to fold. Exactly how do you think he's going to play AK, QQ or JJ when there is an overlay of 2 limpers + the blinds in the pot? I'd say folding is highly doubtful even I'd just pushed in right away, something I'm starting to like a little bit since I'm not folding much of anything if I raise here. Anyway raising to the amounts you mention and then folding in my opinion would be super-terrible.

[psatiw]

That's one of the most important reasons for not folding QQ here, you open yourself up to exploitation too much if you make that fold.

 

Well, what I'm trying to say is that with a 600 raise into a 750 pot at this stage, I could very well imagine someone in the spot of the aggressor pushing all-in with TT-JJ, and AK. With a 1200 or so raise, that takes away quite a bit of the fold-equity you present to the person behind you, and at least I would be more inclined (with an about equally large stack, and more importantly, SOLID stack) to fold a TT-QQ hand in that (the all-in raisors) spot. Its more of a risk to make a move at a pot that big, and with someone near committed to the pot. And as I said, if he still puts me all-in, I would be pretty sure I'm up against KK/AA. At the situation here, I just wouldnt know. But I'm prolly way off as usual. (I mean, super-terrible? )

 

The bottom line is that a 600 raise here is something I dont like at all. If you are to raise - raise bigger och shove it all in right away (if you still gonna call a re-raise all-in).

[Borax]

psatiw wrote:

The bottom line is that a 600 raise here is something I dont like at all. If you are to raise - raise bigger och shove it all in right away (if you still gonna call a re-raise all-in).

 

The problem with that scenario is that only AA and KK would call, while the TT, AK and JJ hands that I would want to call my QQ, would probably fold. The fact that I called the push from the aggressive player here does not mean that I would call in any situation. If the two limpers had called the all-in before me I would probably have folded, since at least one of them was a very tight player. At least I now had a choice and I then decided to go with my read.