NLT - SnG, QQ, call all-in reraise preflop?

[Ector]

If you are going to call an all in bet from another player push the stack in yourself if the pot at the time of betting = 10% of your stack or more is a rule of thumb i use. In this case i would probably push.

[psatiw]

The problem with that scenario is that only AA and KK would call, while the TT, AK and JJ hands that I would want to call my QQ, would probably fold.

 

Well, in the same spot as you there, I would've been fully OK with "just" taking home them 750 in the pot allready (~20% increase of your stack). What I CERTAINLY would NOT want is a caller behind me, with 2 limpers in front (that are certain to call as well) with QQ. Fine, with AA/KK, I can take 1-2 players in the pot, but building a big pot, for 4 people to see the flop, at that stage, and with QQ in the pocket - well, thats a situation I would not want at all. I mean, lets say someone behind you actually calls your 600 - then you will be 4 in the pot, since UTG, UTG+1 would have to call thoose extra 400, and would you really want to be in that spot with QQ?

 

Ectors advice with the 10%-rule is prolly the best here. Win more than 10% of your stack (when it's fairly OK allready) with QQ, and be happy with that. Sounds very reasonable.

[Borax]

Thanks for advice

I aggree when it comes to raising more than 600, say something like 5-6xBB, but pushing directly will only get me called by AA/KK whatever the read on the player and probably loose my stack. So a higher bet to exclude callers and try to take it down directly makes sence. I still do not see the need to push directly in the given situation though, when I could get the same effect from raising with 25-30% of my stack.

[psatiw]

I still do not see the need to push directly in the given situation though, when I could get the same effect from raising with 25-30% of my stack.

 

Well, one reason would be, that if you are sure you're gonna call a re-raise All-In, you might aswell push it in yourself. By doing so, you will take away the possibility that someone makes a move on you. And sure, you will only get called by AA/KK as you state, but the likelyhood that someone's got thoose hands in that spot is so small, so its a +EV play in the long run. I think your 600 raise would've been justified if you where first in, but with 750 allready in the pot, you might as well push it, since thats a fair amount to win uncontested with your two queens.

[Borax]

ok- then we aggree since I wasn't sure I was going to call an all-in.

[dlinder]

Well, one reason would be, that if you are sure you're gonna call a re-raise All-In, you might aswell push it in yourself. By doing so, you will take away the possibility that someone makes a move on you.

 

Well, if you're sure that you will call the all in reraise, you couldn't be happier than if someone makes a move on you.

 

I agree with Borax that raise-call seems superior to all-in directly, since with raise-call you will also get to face hands that you have beaten.

[erbus]

psatiw wrote:

The bottom line is that a 600 raise here is something I dont like at all. If you are to raise - raise bigger och shove it all in right away (if you still gonna call a re-raise all-in).

 

The problem with that scenario is that only AA and KK would call, while the TT, AK and JJ hands that I would want to call my QQ, would probably fold. The fact that I called the push from the aggressive player here does not mean that I would call in any situation. If the two limpers had called the all-in before me I would probably have folded, since at least one of them was a very tight player. At least I now had a choice and I then decided to go with my read.

 

l don´t think so..why? this is a $11-SnG and they will call you with anything, at least they will when l play a $11-SnG

 

l have been in that senario before with AA, KK and QQ (not at the same time ) and with two limpers before me and at least one after me, this is a perfect time to go all in with QQ, you will get called by hands that you beat like A9s, Axs and so on, and of course hands that will beat you like AA and KK but that dont happens as often as you get called by hands that you beat pre flop. l think, you think that your oponents thinks like you (they know the game), but they normally dont ..they se two cards Axs/o and think.. l go fore it....l feel lucky today

 

l think you played your hand correct by calling, but you should alredy have been all in before the guy with KK as psatiw writes

 

psatiw wrote: Well, in the same spot as you there, I would've been fully OK with "just" taking home them 750 in the pot allready (~20% increase of your stack). What I CERTAINLY would NOT want is a caller behind me, with 2 limpers in front (that are certain to call as well) with QQ.

 

it´s not often that l write something in english so pardon my bad france

 

/A

[dlinder]

I just can't see what the opponent could have that could possibly make for a better outcome with a direct all-in than a raise-call?

 

With AA and KK, you're probably going to lose your stack anyhow. With AK, it's a flip either way.

 

But if the opponent is holding a marginal hand (AQ/JJ-88), he will fold most of them to your all-in, but be trapped by a raise-call. You don't want to scare these away.

[psatiw]

With AA and KK, you're probably going to lose your stack anyhow. With AK, it's a flip either way.

 

Well, he both got a decent stack allready, and the pot will increase it by a mere 20% or so if he takes it right away. With a raise/call, he will almost certainly be in a coinflip-situation if he's pushed all-in, but asuming he's not a worse player than avarage, he'll be in a fine spot without having to take that coinflip. I guess it's a matter of how comfortable you feel in the spot your'e in, currently in the tournament. Personally, when I have a lot of chips in a good situation, I dont go look for coinflip-situations against the other big stacks.

[dlinder]

Well, he both got a decent stack allready, and the pot will increase it by a mere 20% or so if he takes it right away. With a raise/call, he will almost certainly be in a coinflip-situation if he's pushed all-in, but asuming he's not a worse player than avarage, he'll be in a fine spot without having to take that coinflip. I guess it's a matter of how comfortable you feel in the spot your'e in, currently in the tournament. Personally, when I have a lot of chips in a good situation, I dont go look for coinflip-situations against the other big stacks.

 

Why probably a coinflip with a raise-call? The only hand I can think of that creates a coinflip situation is AK (and there are a lot of other hand that give very different results), and AK will definitely call anyway IMO.

[Borax]

On my other forum, the poster Gixmage kind of hit the nail on the head I think.

Gixmage wrote:

However, pushing preflop is a bad idea in this situation. I believe it was Howard Lederer that stated that pushing preflop in situations like this is the same as pushing 7-2 offsuit, chances are the only hands that call you are AA, KK, or AK. Two out of three have you killed.

 

 

Pokemon67 wrote: it´s not often that l write something in english so pardon my bad france

 

Your English is just as good as mine og du kan godt skrive på svensk hvis du vil. Det blir enklere for meg å poste på engelsk, siden jeg poster på på et annet engelsk forum, men jeg forstår svensk uten problem.

[rickie]

On my other forum, the poster Gixmage kind of hit the nail on the head I think.

Gixmage wrote:

However, pushing preflop is a bad idea in this situation. I believe it was Howard Lederer that stated that pushing preflop in situations like this is the same as pushing 7-2 offsuit, chances are the only hands that call you are AA, KK, or AK. Two out of three have you killed.

 

 

Pokemon67 wrote: it´s not often that l write something in english so pardon my bad france

 

Your English is just as good as mine og du kan godt skrive på svensk hvis du vil. Det blir enklere for meg å poste på engelsk, siden jeg poster på på et annet engelsk forum, men jeg forstår svensk uten problem.

 

 

With 7 opponents left, and if they will only call with AK, KK and AA. They should call you around one time out of seven.

 

So if the two limpers, usually limp in the pots, and you got no reason at all to believe they are holding AK/KK/AA (this is usually not the case tho, since alot of players limp with better than average hands).

 

Pushing with 7-2 off into a 700 pot and taking it 6/7 times, should be a way to accumulate chips (if the table is that tight and the if the limpers limp every pot).

 

Since you will have around 25% average to win the pot the times you do get called.

 

However, my point is that you have to see the whole picture.

 

And theres also another thing on my head. And that is that, generally, to say that people will only call an all-in raise with AK/AA/KK is also wrong.

 

Theres alot of people that overplay AQ, AJ, JJ, 10-10 and even low-pairs. And actually call all-in raises with those hands even if the table still isnt short-handed.

 

So I dont agree with gixmage in what he says.

 

In the situation with the queens, and the two limpers, I would push allin, if I dont suspect that the first limper is holding a premium hand like AA and plans to limp/reraise with it.

[Borax]

I like this discussion and this forum

It shows that there are different opinion on how to play these situations.

I still fail to see why I should push instead of raise, but I might be wrong.

The reads are important of course in any hand and I might have pushed this particular hand if I had position. But with players after me in addition to the limpers I will go for a good raise in the future I think. Thanks to all posters by the way.

[LazarusS]

Jag testar svenska istället då...

 

I och med att du valde att syna med dina flickor antar jag att du trodde att du hade den bästa handen. Om du trodde du var slagen borde du ju ha lagt dig eller hur? Givet detta tycker jag att du borde ha ställt i preflop istället för din höjning (som jag i och för sig tycker borde varit 6 eller 7 *bb, om du vill trycka bort draghänder odyl.) Om du kan tänka dig en allin-syn tycker jag det är bättre att ställa in direkt.

 

En grej som jag undrar är hur du själv hade spelat tidigare i turneringen? Hade folk respekt för dina betar? Din motståndare i denna handen; hade du varit uppe mot honom tidigare? Om folk tex. visste att du bara höjer med riktigt bra händer kanske en allin från din motsåndare i den här handen borde ha satt igång en varningsklocka?

 

Det var mina tankar och jag förstår att det var svårt att lägga sig med en så pass bra hand. Tyvärr får ju motspelarna premiumhänder även de

 

Det är bara att gneta vidare... Nästa gång samma sak händer floppar du säkert en tredje dam

 

Lycka till.

/P

[Borax]

LazarusS wrote:

En grej som jag undrar är hur du själv hade spelat tidigare i turneringen? Hade folk respekt för dina betar? Din motståndare i denna handen; hade du varit uppe mot honom tidigare? Om folk tex. visste att du bara höjer med riktigt bra händer kanske en allin från din motsåndare i den här handen borde ha satt igång en varningsklocka?

 

 

Godt poeng! Jeg glemmer ofte å tenke på hvordan de andre leser mitt spill. Jeg spilte veldig tight tidligere og min eneste veldig bra hånd som gikk til show down var KK. Men jeg hadde begynt å stjele noen blinds med tilsvarende bets og hadde vist økende aggresjon. Jeg tror jeg ble litt for opptatt av min read på all in spilleren. Han var så aggressiv gjennom hele turneringen at jeg vurderte at han godt kunne ha AK eller Kanskje JJ, TT etc. da jeg callet. Men som noen nevnte var jeg litt redd for minst en av limperne som var en tight og utspekulert spiller samt at jeg bør også nevne at BB var leading stack og jo satt etter meg i posisjon.

[erbus]

 

Pokemon67 wrote: it´s not often that l write something in english so pardon my bad france

 

Your English is just as good as mine og du kan godt skrive på svensk hvis du vil. Det blir enklere for meg å poste på engelsk, siden jeg poster på på et annet engelsk forum, men jeg forstår svensk uten problem.

 

oh faen, DET skriver du nu, när jag har ansträngt mig att skriva på engelska

 

/A

[erbus]

jag provar ett nytt varv..

 

om du har två som limpar in framför dig när du sitter med QQ, så är det en all in som gäller om du skall spela handen, även om du har spelare efter dig, anledningen till att gå all in nu är att du egentligen är nöjd med blindsen de har betalat (alltid bättre med en liten vinst än en stor förlust) om alla foldar.

 

men om de väljer att calla dig så är det ett beslut som kan vara väldigt fel från deras sida eftersom de aldrig kan veta vad du sitter med, har du en tight image så kan de räkna med ett högt PP och då kanske till och med någon foldar en hand som slår dig pre flopp, även om det kanske inte är så troligt.

 

nivån på spelarna i en 11 dollars SnG varierer kraftigt, och jag skulle nog inte fundera så väldigt mycket över hur de spelar utan mera försöka ge dem så svåra beslut som möjligt, för vill de calla dig så gör de det med vad som helst.

 

men vad vet jag??

 

/A

[LazarusS]

nivån på spelarna i en 11 dollars SnG varierer kraftigt, och jag skulle nog inte fundera så väldigt mycket över hur de spelar utan mera försöka ge dem så svåra beslut som möjligt, för vill de calla dig så gör de det med vad som helst.

 

 

 

 

Bra talat.

 

/P