Did Alec Torelli ANGLESHOOT An Amateur On Television?

[freddex1989]

Vad tycker ni? Medvetet eller omedvetet?

Först tycker jag att det är ett ärligt misstag. Wolf har också valet att fråga om Torellis stack innan han går all-in.

Men sen börjar Alec jiddra om "legal" och ska kalla på floor-staff och att "it stands"? Då tror jag att Alec börjar förstå av Wolfs reaktion att Alec har den bästa handen och att Alec bara vill kolla med floor innan han synar.

Regeln är att stora chips ska synas, men vad är straffet om de inte syns? Om man kommer fram till att Alec "vinkelskjuter" så är det ändå bara att konstatera och varna han för framtiden. Mer än så kan inte göras?

Vad tycker ni?

[jaroiten]

Vargens egna ord om saken:
 

This is the same response i had posted on my twitter (wolf_clarence) in response to Doug's video. 

With the recent opinions that have surfaced since this hand has aired, I’ve decided to write this in response and inform people of the conversation that i had with Alec after the game. I obviously have seen Doug’s video and i appreciate the fact that Doug approaches the situation as a professional and without biased opinions. 

I will jump straight to the point in the hand where I decided to 4bet jam all in and Alec was tanking. In the past when talking about this scenario, i would include and show pictures of how his stack looked from my vantage point but Doug did a great job displaying all of that for me. I would like to note though that even the TV graphics were incorrect and seems as though not a single person on set knew of those chips. Obviously the hand was edited and shortened for tv purposes (Altho the original live stream is still on twitch and i was actually surprised that they aired this hand but we’ve come to learn that PNIA favors controversy). I had eyed Alec's stacks down and could see all his orange in front and so I (mistakenly) assumed he had roughly $16,000. Comments like 'he just jammed without even thinking why he was doing what he was' is false. But that is not the point of this debate. This entire discussion is whether or not Alec was angling. And here are some of my opinions on why it could have been:

1. Alec has been playing high stakes for years. Making constant videos in front of hotel fountains and talking underneath seagulls next to the ocean. Having your large chips out front for any high stakes player is second nature. 
2. The max buy in for this game is $20,000. As far as I know, Alec reloaded with the silver chips going over the table max. (I could go back and watch the entire footage to see when exactly he puts them on, but he was losing constantly in the game leading me to believe that he went north).
3. Alec had played on PNIA numerous times. Whenever you add chips on you are told to tell the producers so that they can update chip counts. If he was adding on going north, of course he would not notify them.
4. Alec was getting gaped in the game. Going north without telling anyone is a common pickle chasing technique.
5. Begin to add these up and think of the odds - a LONG TIME HIGH STAKES PLAYER ON POKER NIGHT IN AMERICA NOT ONLY DOESN'T TELL PRODUCERS THAT HES ADDING CHIPS ON, BUT HE THEN FORGETS TO PUT THEM OUT IN FRONT ALL WHILE BEING STUCK IN THE GAME.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's rain...

Now back to the hand. Alec could tell that my reaction was sincere (sorry everyone, it was my first time bluffing for $26,000 and I got a little nervous). While he begins to act like we could possibly work out a deal during the hand, two other players at the table kept interrupting. Basically saying that the chips are on the table and so they're in play and repeatedly tried calling the clock (there wasn't much time left in the game and they were stuck and wanted to get as many hands in as they could) to get the hand over with. 

At one point, Alec says something like 'oh I know I'm calling if it was for $16,000 I have to think about this tho.' I remember when he said that looking at me to try and get a reaction. 

Anyways, with a second or two left on the clock he calls and goes on to make a YouTube video where he slightly changes the situation making it sound like everyone else at the table was super drunk and stuck when he was in fact stuck (I believe) the most. 

I can understand each side of the argument- that in the end it is the players responsibility to always know how much a player has in front of them. I've learned from this hand and as much as it sucked, I did not have hatred towards Alec at this exact point in time. I still do not regret my decision to jam (as much as that makes you cringe Doug. Deeb once said never to drop out of school to play poker full time unless you live in Pittsburgh. Plays like this must be why) but instead only regret my reaction (even started a trend and other top players in the world took a page from my book...at least you won your disaster Cate). 

After the hand Alec acts very cordial. Telling me to talk to him after the show that maybe we can work something out. Keep this in mind - HE asked ME to talk to HIM after the show to potentially work out a DEAL.

I will preface the conversation that we had with a few facts about myself. I am a very honest person and try to treat others the same as I would want them to treat me. Even Doug said i was way too nice in this spot! While these examples are at lower stakes, in my opinion, it is the principle that matters and I do not play these high of stakes often enough to have situations like this surface.

In a PLO game, a player and I had got all in on the turn and when the river hit he tabled his hand and I pushed my hand towards the dealer. The dealer counted his stack, and I counted out the same to pay him. This all took around maybe 45 seconds or so. After I pushed my chips forward I had realized that I had misread my hand. I retrieve it and ask the dealer 'my hand was never in the muck correct?'. He agrees that it is was not. I quickly tell the player don't worry I have you beat, but if my hand is live, im just going to split the pot with you. I didn't know this person. I had just met him during this session and felt bad about my accidental super slow roll. It was only a total pot of about $1,500 but as I said, I think the principle is very important in this case.

When people make sincere accidents at the table I usually give them the benefit of the doubt. Without getting into too much detail, I've had spots on the river where I table my hand and a player misreads it and they muck the winner. I again chopped the pot with them. In a home game, I had a whale accidentally expose his hand when he thought that everyone had folded. He exposed top pair and a flush draw while I was in position with top set. It was a rather large home game and we all know a whale is never folding his hand for any amount. I politely told him that I had him crushed and that we can just check it down. He agreed and a few players in the game thanked me for making a favorable decision in his favor. 

Any person who has played with me or has known me since I first started playing poker knows that I am an honest and very fair person. Since Alec had asked me to talk to him after the show, I had proposed these deals to him.

At first, I beat around the bush asking for the $10,000 of questionable chips back. He declined. I then propose the idea that my AT has roughly %20 equity vs his AQ, how about we do an equity chop of again just the $10,000 of questionable chips - I asked for $2,000 back. He again declined. Now, if he would have never asked me to speak with him, I would have never asked for money back. I would have just moved on to live with the hand.

This is when I developed hatred towards Alec: his 'deal' that he proposed to me is that he would SELL ME HIS ACTION IN A LATER CASH GAME AT A DISCOUNT. 

I can't remember the exact numbers that he blurted out but he told me that his hourly was 'x' amount in the game and that he would sell me his action at a discount for 'y'.

So you (debatably) angle someone for heaps of money, act all cordial and sorry on camera, and then want them to invest more money in you?!?!? 

Spoiler - I have yet to buy any of Alec's action.

On top of this, I later found out that Alec has been involved in scams in the past. Now I'm rather new to poker (have only played full time for not even two years) and obviously don't know what is true and what is not, but the online chip dumping as well as other random stories that people inform me are in Alec's past. We all know that in poker, your reputation is everything. Albeit, this is just my opinion, I do not think it is inconceivable that Alec attempts to display himself on PNIA and his website and YouTube channel as a very honorable person in attempt to help burry his past. He is very much all about his image and promoting himself. 

As I said, I understand that in the end it boils down to it being my responsibility to always know how much a player has. His slap in the face offer to me after the game is what caused me to develop a hatred towards him. It was a very controversial hand and i accept the fact that i am ,at the least, partially at fault. I’ve learned from it but I will always hate that hummus eating dork.

[magico]

Oavsett om Alec smygit in chipsen eller inte är det självklart att han ska be om ursäkt och erbjuda att dom spelar all in utan silverchipsen imo.

[freddex1989]

Alec har lovat ett svar snart.

https://www.facebook.com/alec.torelli/

[valterego]

Håller med Magico. Tveksam till att Torelli fulspelar medvetet, men hanterar hela situationen så galet osnyggt. 

[freddex1989]

21 minuter sedan, säger valterego :

Håller med Magico. Tveksam till att Torelli fulspelar medvetet, men hanterar hela situationen så galet osnyggt. 

Jag håller med i det också.

Det ska bli intressant att höra/läsa Alecs svar.

[freddex1989]

Jaha. Jag tror inte vi hört det sista ännu. Doug Polk kommer troligen med ett svar.

Vad tycker ni om Alecs svar? Dubbelt så många som gör tummen ner åt videon. (just nu)

[valterego]

Den 7/4/2017 kl 15:08, säger freddex1989 :

Jaha. Jag tror inte vi hört det sista ännu. Doug Polk kommer troligen med ett svar.

Vad tycker ni om Alecs svar? Dubbelt så många som gör tummen ner åt videon. (just nu)

Tycker ändå att Torellis respons var bättre än väntat. Han bollar ju över en del påståenden mot Polk man skulle vilja höra svaret på.

[freddex1989]

18 minuter sedan, säger valterego :

Tycker ändå att Torellis respons var bättre än väntat. Han bollar ju över en del påståenden mot Polk man skulle vilja höra svaret på.

Jag håller med dig och det är därför jag tror att vi inte hört det sista i den här historien.

[freddex1989]

 

[Ola Brandborn]

För oss som inte orkar lyssna på anabolstinna pökerspelare i timslånga videoklipp, kan ni ge en tldr-sammanfattning?

[mpee]

Jag kan verkligen inte bestämma mig för om Doug är en rätt skoj å reko kille eller en tvättäkta douchebag.

[valterego]

1 timme sedan, säger mpee :

Jag kan verkligen inte bestämma mig för om Doug är en rätt skoj å reko kille eller en tvättäkta douchebag.

Exakt samma känsla här.

[rasmus88]

Hur kommer det sig att ALLA amerikanska pokerproffs klär sig så fruktansvärt illa? Nog för att amerikaner i allmänhet brukar ha usel klädstil men pokerspelarna tar det fan en nivå till. Doug Polk har väl nästan gått om DNeg nu som universums sämst klädda man? Nåväl en rolig och lärorik YT-kanal har han i alla fall. Jag är helt klart team Doug i den här frågan.