Vad göra med mellan-pockets?

[Arne123]

Låt oss säga att vi spelar NL100 6-max

 

Fi1 är en 25/18/1.5 och sitter med hela 5 inköp

Fi2 är 40/5/0.8 sitter endast med $28

 

 

Alla foldar fram till Fi1 på CO som raisar till 3.5 Fi2 synar som vanligt på knappen.

 

Vi väljer att syna med på BB

 

Pot: ca 11

 

Flop:

 

Hero? vilken linje gillar ni mest? Bet/fold eller check/syn?

[mgps]

Låt oss säga att vi spelar NL100 6-max

 

Fi1 är en 25/18/1.5 och sitter med hela 5 inköp

Fi2 är 40/5/0.8 sitter endast med $28

 

 

Alla foldar fram till Fi1 på CO som raisar till 3.5 Fi2 synar som vanligt på knappen.

 

Vi väljer att syna med på BB

 

Pot: ca 11

 

Flop:

 

Hero? vilken linje gillar ni mest? Bet/fold eller check/syn?

 

 

eftersom du sitter i position så är dte ju bett om han checka till dig och syn om han bettar.

 

 

menar du inte om du sitter i sb eller bb? det är ju betydligt mer svårspelat ur pos.

 

ur pos är checksyn bäst oftast. du vill ju plocka upp ett c-bet.

[Arne123]

Vi väljer att syna med på BB

Vi är ur poss altså

[mgps]

Vi är ur poss altså

 

ah läste fel lste dig som fi2. men svarade

iaf på det duf rågade.

[Arne123]

Pot: ca $11

 

Flop:

 

Hero checkar , Fi1 bettar $8, Fi2 foldar, Hero synar.

 

Pot: $27

 

Turn

 

Hero checkar Fi bettar $22

 

Bara fortsätta syna ner eller ska man folda iochmed att fi inte är allt för aggresiv postflop? (1.5 är hans aggfactor)

[mgps]

Pot: ca $11

 

Flop:

 

Hero checkar , Fi1 bettar $8, Fi2 foldar, Hero synar.

 

Pot: $27

 

Turn

 

Hero checkar Fi bettar $22

 

Bara fortsätta syna ner eller ska man folda iochmed att fi inte är allt för aggresiv postflop? (1.5 är hans aggfactor)

 

 

fortsätter han betta är det väl fold om han är tight och oftast passiv och inte tänker så mycket.

 

annars om han sett dig ta linjen checksyn-checkfold ofta kan han ju skjuta tom en gång till.

 

 

nvänder ej pokertracker/office så vet inte hur pass aggressivt/passivt 1.5 är...

[mobydick]

EWftrersom han sitter med fem inköp och således har riggen med sig så är det ju ett enkelt lägg,floppen lär komma nåt i stil med A99 turn 10 rier 10 han har pocket tior.Ifall du har AA kommer floppen A1010 inga mer A:n.

om du däremot hade fem inköp sdkulle du ställa med 22 du är 98% favo mot alla händer.nätpoker och livepoker är två olika spel med olika sannolikheter.

De som säger något annat är de smarta som vill att du skatro på naturliga sannolikheter.

[Arne123]

EWftrersom han sitter med fem inköp och således har riggen med sig så är det ju ett enkelt lägg,floppen lär komma nåt i stil med A99 turn 10 rier 10 han har pocket tior.Ifall du har AA kommer floppen A1010 inga mer A:n.

om du däremot hade fem inköp sdkulle du ställa med 22 du är 98% favo mot alla händer.nätpoker och livepoker är två olika spel med olika sannolikheter.

De som säger något annat är de smarta som vill att du skatro på naturliga sannolikheter.

 

Blivit bad-beatad nyligen eller?

[mgps]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3562325&an=0&page=9#Post3562325

 

*Related topic but not my focus* Why bother doing this with 99? This is a great board for a call to bluff! Once again if you plan on raising 99 for "info," you could do the same with JT (for example) which missed the flop completely. You outmanuever a hand which you have 6 outs against, and if he's the type to 3bet w/overpair (given 60bbs, I think is fine) you dont care folding a no pair no draw hand.

 

Which leads me to: I dont think this is an appropriate example of when raising for information - solely - is or is not a viable option. Would I ever raise for informatin alone? Probably not, I try to incorporate several other reasons into why I do something (either for an action I WILL take later in the hand or ending all actions NOW, such as folding) But...

 

When playing deeper stacked, lets say both players have 3000 rather then 300, (in example we will say we're at foxwoods) a raise here could pressure an overpair into shelling up; or, to put it mildly, may be smarter to see whether 99 is best on the flop rather then call the flop and make a guess on a turn when more money is at stake. I think the biggest problem with your article was your example utilized a case where the price of the information [125, or 25 bbs] was too great relative to stack sizes. [300, or 60 bbs]

 

In a deeper stacked game, you alluded to this, which I want to mention - By seizing control of the hand, your raise also accomplishes:

-Taking initiative, which for deeper stacked play, is so much more useful - when checked to on turn, you can make a big pot or small pot decision. Either decide you want to play a big pot and bet (lets say you turn a 9) small pot and check (and snap off a small bluff in a small pot) or big pot (lets say top pair pairs) to pressure TT+ into laying down.

 

-Hand protection; vs given player, you have limited his hand range substantially preflop. If you raise, and he calls, from that point on you have defended vs a 6outer, because you know ace king wont be in there on the turn. And if he did, then he called a half pot raise for a 6 out shot, which is forcing him to make a FTOP mistake. Goody.

 

The whole argument is: Is the information worth the price you paid? The easy answer, from your example and nicely demonstrated by your article, is no. However, deeper stacked, I think the answer is yes *Actually, the answer is "it depends," but for arguments sake, I'm sticking with 'yes'* and I'll show why.

 

An opponent like mentioned calling to evaluate the turn is better then raising the flop for information, only because the times he has a 6out draw is not worth protection your hand. Thats a given. Rather, a raise for information is useful when an opponent will NOT REVEAL THIS INFORMATION. This is someone capable of firing a 2nd barrell, or possibly 3rd, with an unimproved AK.

 

If you both have 3000, someone capable of firing 3 streets w/ ace high for example (and deeper stacked) by calling the flop the pot is 150. He potted the flop on a dry board, so if we assume he'll pot down with AK or JJ+, you now on the turn have to pay 150 + 450 = 600 to showdown your marginal overpair. Ignoring raising when we turn or river a set, or making a smart laydown when an ace or king turns, (*these will be considered, but for demonstrative purposes they will be done next)

 

He has AK and doesnt improve: 40% (% He has this hand) x 75% (% of time this will occur) x 600 (pot size from point "0," or flop on) = +180

He has AK and improves: 40% x 25% x 600 = -60

He has JJ,QQ,KK,AA and it holds up: 60% x 92% x 600 = -331.2

He has JJ,QQ,KK,AA and you hit a set: 60% x 8% x 600 = +28.8

 

Net of -182.4$. Clearly then calling down pot bets with a marginal overpair and not making smart folds (when an ace or king appears on the board) or value raises (when you actually hit the set!) is a terrible idea.

 

 

 

Now, lets say we are able to fold when an ace or king turns, and we're able to ellicit some value from a turned or rivered 9. An ace or king appearing on the turn is approximately 13%, and 14% for the river. And if we hit a set, if we get paid off by raising the river for full pot (probably overly optimistic, but it is easy to factor in) the EV calculation becomes...

 

When he improves, he now only wins: 40% (times he has AK) x 13% (times he improves on the turn) x 0 (you fold to turn bet) + 14% x 150 (money put in on the turn) = -8.4$. So smart folds save us ~51 in real dollar equity.

When we improve, we now win: 60% (He has JJ,QQ,KK,AA) x 8% (you hit a set) x [ 1800 (full pot raise) + 600 (money in the pot already) ] = 115.2$ (So we make about 100$ more when we hit a set)

EV of not improving or Ace or King falling stay the same, so the net is still -44.4$.

 

 

 

Raising the flop, however; (from mike's article)

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Thus, the expected value of raising is:

40% × $100 + 60% × -$87.40 = -$12.44

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

So the lesser of two evils is raising now!

 

Interestingly though, this means folding is the right case vs said player. (Who only has this hand range but is maddeningly aggressive post flop)

 

However, what about this same foxwoods game where original raiser has a WIDER range? This is when raising for INFORMATION can be a viable option! Because, when deepstacked, and not as narrowed hand range preflop, you can make many more mistakes for more money on future streets!!!

 

What do I mean by this?

 

Well, lets say solid / good slightly loose player in said foxwoods game opens for 20 in MP. You have button and contemplate popping it up with 99, but call anyway. At this point villain's hand range is NOT just "AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ" but premium hands, maybe 88+, AK, AQ, and an occaisonal suited connector.

 

So same flop comes - 7 5 2r - and villain makes a pot bet. Is raising for information more viable now? The answer is yes. You have a vulnerable hand which rates to be good on this board, but also can be way behind (bigger overpair) and his occaisonal raise of a suited connector could give him an oesd, or a pair (and you dont know which cards hurt) or just overcards. In this example, if you call the flop, on the turn you need to basically only see a 9, or perhaps a T or J. Any other card could give him potentially the winning hand, if he doesnt have the best hand now.

 

Now, if he checks the turn, and you bet now, and he folds all worse hands, clearly you didnt need 99 to make the play. You could have JT (as referenced earlier) and be making a call to bluffHowever, on the flop, because his hand range was wide enough where you werent sure if he fired again if you had the best hand (vs ace high bluff, 88, 76, etc.) or drawing slim vs better hand (overpair) this is a case where getting the information (for 125, for example) rather then calling down 150 + 450 (pot bets on turn and river) is better.

 

ala, fold out a bunch of the hands which can move you off your hand or draw out. Interestingly, vs a slightly looser open raiser, raising the flop, and if called, putting them on bigger overpair or perhaps smaller underpair or top pair or oesd cause the hand to play much easier and more profitable for you. Now you can make the better turn play - often check for pot control - and now have a higer frequency of picking off a river bluff (as more cards could bluff, such as 56 or 34) or perhaps sliding a value bet from a call / check / check vs A7 or something.

 

Err... So anyway. very good article mike, I liked it, and although I wouldn't necessarily raise for information, when shallow stacked (such as your 60bb example) in a deeper stacked game vs a guy who doesnt limit his hand range before the flop so much it becomes an option.

 

***I guess I should put up EV calculations of raising "for information" in the deep stacked game (to prove that the raise would be more pos EV then calling turn) but this ran kinda long, so I'm just going to leave my hypothesis out there for someone else to defend. Which is, raising the flop now for information (and technically protection) is better then floating till the turn***

[okocha]

blablabla

edit: va inget

[FiSherman63]

3-bet pf. Problem solved.

[Jerico]

Avskyr iaf betfold eftersom så många höjer donks med missade overs. Gillar nog att bara syna cbet och sen vika turn om han är ganska passiv, annars fortsätter jag syna.

[mgps]

edit: va inget

 

gissning: du trodde artikeln sade bestämt höj för information och tänkte ge mig en föreläsning om varför man ej höjer för info?

[okocha]

gissning: du trodde artikeln sade bestämt höj för information och tänkte ge mig en föreläsning om varför man ej höjer för info?

 

Nja, skrev ett allmänt drygt inlägg som inte tillförde någonting alls. Det blir lätt så på fredag- och lördagskvällar.